Ditch the Chronic Diseases: An Interview with Dr. John McDougall, MD

The following was an interview conducted with Dr. John McDougall on the subject of chronic degenerative diseases, the failure of medicine to effectively treat them, and the power of a whole food, plant-based, starch-centered diet to prevent, halt and reverse these diseases.

“It’s the food!”

A: Ok, so, good morning Dr. McDougall.

M: Good morning, how are you today?

A: Good, good.

M: Well, thank you for inviting me to be on your show. What we're talking about, to people in what part of the world?

A: This is St. John's, Newfoundland in Canada.

M: In Canada? Okay.

A: We're like the Alaska; we're very similar to the Alaska, except we're on the East


M: Oh that's nice. Do you have a good following of people who are interested food?


M: Good, good. Well, what would you like to talk about this morning?

A: Well first I want to give a brief introduction to some of my viewers who may not know you. I'd just like to start off with: you grew up in the Midwest in the States--and I did as well, I actually grew up in Chicago--and you ate the Standard American Diet. Can you tell people what that diet was like and how it affected your health growing up?

M: Oh yeah. Well my parents, you know, they were out of the Depression, and, they lived during the Depression times and my mom, my mother, promised that she'd never have to, she would never have to have her children eat what she ate during the Depression--which was pretty simple food, you know, potatoes and squash, you know, not much. And so, she made sure that her children had plenty of protein and calcium.

So, I would start out the morning with eggs for breakfast, and admittedly I had a substantial number of eggs for breakfast. I'd go on for lunch with bologna sandwiches, and for dinner it would always be things like burgers or chicken or pizza. In fact, I was a big pizza fan.

And as a young boy I suffered from abdominal pains, stomach pains, and severe constipation problems, that I would hate to even tell you [about], except that's what I did. Most of you could relate to what I'm saying.

At seven years old I lost my tonsils, due to the consumption of dairy products. And as a teenager I was... I didn't have much endurance. So, when I was on the playground, I was a bit slow, which, you know, I didn't understand. I had the usual oily skin, acne, and then at 18, a life-changing event occurred which I still live with today, 54 years later. At 18 years old I

had a massive stroke. It paralyzed the left side of my body, and, as I say, to today I walk with a limp because of that. At 24, the abdominal pains became so bad that they put me through major abdominal surgery. And, I [have to tell you, I'd] probably be dead or at least [...]I [would had] had to have heart surgery by the time I was 30.

Now, you may think my story is unusual, but it's not. Maybe I was ahead a decade or two than most people eating the Western diet, but, you know, a thousand teenagers a year have strokes or heart attacks. So I was in very poor health.

Fortunately, fortunately, I-- well, in the process of becoming a medical doctor, I was very frustrated. And then I had an experience that changed my life forever.I trained in Michigan, met my wife, Mary, in Michigan. We've been together, it would be 46 years now. And in 1972 we moved to Hawaii. In 1973 I got a job as a sugar plantation doctor on the Big Island of Hawaii, and that's where my life really changed. My own personal [...] started to change. I was taking care of first, second,third, and fourth generation Filipinos, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans. These are men and women who worked on the sugar plantation. And they had come from, the first generation had come from their native lands of the Philippines, Korea, China, etc., and the diet they had learned as children, they kept-- the first generation [did]. The second generation, the ones that were born on the Big Island of Hawaii, they were influenced more by the Western diet. It was Texas Drive-In when I first went there,  the home of the malasada, it was called. And then in about 1974, the first McDonald's came to Hilo, Hawaii, and I was one of their first and best customers.

But what I noticed during my three years as a sugar plantation doctor, where, you know,

I tried to help 5,000 sugar plantation workers, what I found out was that I was a

terrible doctor. My patients did not get well, no matter how many drugs I pushed

at 'em. But now, we're talking about the usual patient, the everyday common

problems of chronic diseases people who had: high blood pressure, diabetes, arthritis,

heart disease, cancers, and so on. No matter how hard I tried they wouldn't

get better. So I became very frustrated as a physician during those three years

as a plantation doctor. But I also became enlightened. What I saw was that it was not

inevitable to become sick as you got older. What I saw was my first generation patients lived into their 80s and 90s, fully functional. This was typical. Whereas the second generation got fatter and sicker, and by the time you get to the third generation, fully Americanized, you found some of the fattest and sickest people in the world--the people who lived in Hawaii, that I was taking care of as a sugar plantation doctor. So, from that observation, I knew [that] the diet must have something to do with disease because that's the only thing that changed during the passing of generations. They had the same genetics,they did the same kind of work on the plantation, the sugar plantation, for a hundred years--but they had changed their diet, just over, well, for about 35 years. And, as a result, they have some of the highest rates of cancer in Hawaii [...] and gout is very common among the Filipinos. And you know, it--it became obvious that there was something that was very important to change during those three generations or four generations.

Well, after being a plantation doctor for three years--Mary and I spent three years on the sugar plantations on the Big Island of Hawaii--after spending three years [as a] sugar plantation doctor, I decided to go back and learn how to be a really good doctor. So I went back into a training program in Honolulu, which was a very high quality program. It was a residency to learn how to be an internal medicine specialist. So I spent the next two and a half years becoming an internal medicine specialist, hoping get the tools to help my patients who had chronic disease.

But what I found out was my professors were doing no better than I was. People with chronic disease--they just never got better. It didn't matter how many pills you threw at 'em.

With acute problems like lacerations, broken bones, infections-- medical business does a lot of good. But when it comes to chronic illnesses, unfortunately--you know, just the word "chronic" should tell you that we're not doing a very good job.

So, then my journey took me into the medical library, to the scientific research. And what I found out is that many people had observed that when people become rich--I mean this is over the last four or five thousand years this has been documented--and when people become rich, say, in what is now known as Egypt, when they became pharaohs and queens, priests and priestesses, and so on, they became sick. And when you dig these people up and take them out of their pyramids, and you do CAT scans on them or autopsies, you find that these wealthy people, the mummies, had terrible atherosclerosis, they had obesity, they had problems of... even problems with their children that are related to diet, to their offspring.

So, it was obvious that the food, which was [...] from the kings and queens of 4000 years ago, just like the kings and queens of 400 years ago, is that they ate a large amount of animal food, whereas the common person, who built the pyramids, the people who worked the fields, they lived on a diet of Starch.

And, you know, I traced that through many generations, and I started to read scientific studies that were done, beginning a hundred years ago. And the scientific studies clearly showed what the human being is supposed to eat.

But we could have figured that out just by looking at history, geography. Many of your listeners are old enough to remember when most of the world ate a starch-based diet. That's all changed in the last 35 years. It used to be that, well, I'll give you the dates, before 1985 in China, 90% of their diet came from rice. It was white rice,admittedly, but two billion people were

living on 90% of the diet as rice. Now, the Chinese are some of the fattest, sickest people in the world. They have a population where they brag that 12% are [frankly] diabetic, and half are pre-diabetic. Whereas prior to 1985, before the Chinese in China became wealthy, they had virtually no obesity, no type 2 diabetes; they had no longer multiple sclerosis; they had no heart disease, no prostate cancer, no breast cancer, no colon cancer. And when I say "No," there were some rare exceptions.

Well anyway, the scientific research was done for the purpose of discovering facts, truths about people, about human nutrition. This was all done by people motivated by gaining good information, not necessarily by money. And then about 1985, that all changed. The drug companies, the hospital businesses… You know, back then, back in 1985 and before, as a doctor you weren't allowed to  even advertise in the United States. But, of course, all that's changed. Your doctors are advertised to you to sell you heart surgery, and, you know, facelifts, and all kinds of things. [...]

So anyway, doctors advertise,hospitals advertise. In fact, what's turned out is that in the last 35 years, the medical business has been the only growing financial segment of the US economy, with money borrowed from China, by the way. So it's become a huge business, medicine has. And as a result, money corrupts. You know, it's just plain simple human nature, is that...even though we have success and the truth on our side, they have all the money. The drug companies, the food companies, the devices companies, the hospitals, the doctors and

so on. They make money by taking care of sick people, not by making sick people well, but just administering treatment.

So, I became very disenchanted with the medical business because I saw that none of my patients were getting better who had chronic illnesses. And so I launched a passion of mine which was to read the scientific literature. And I started that [in] about 1976; changed my own diet, about 1977; became a board certified internist. I'm now a clinical professor professor at 4 universities. I'm licensed in four states to practice in the US. We've published several scientific papers, which you can get, they're open access, which show clearly, which confirm what thousands of publications had shown us before industry took over the medical journals, before industry took over the doctors.

I mean, a big topic today is the opioid crisis caused by medical doctors. Medical doctors are people just like, you know, your friends and neighbors. They're just people, and they're motivated by the same things, that is, principally money and Ego. And as a result we have a medical system that does not address the cause of illness or the cure of illness; only the treatment of the symptoms of illness when it comes to chronic disease. And, out of that fact, comes the observation, which is consistent, that heart surgery doesn't work for chronic coronary artery disease--and it's a hundred billion dollar a year business in the United States. The fact that type 2 diabetics are 100% curable with diet, and, instead, my profession treats them with a whole variety of drugs, which [...] in their own sake, drugs cause serious adverse effects. But of course, you know, as I said they have all the money, so they can skew their advertisements, they own the medical journals, they buy the researchers, and it's all corrupt.

Basically, you know, one of the things that our current administration has done for me is to teach me that people are enchanted by fake news, and it's okay to present alternative facts. You know, it's okay  to lie! And I never knew that. I always thought that was one of the worst things you could do, is to lie. But, you know, the whole system is involved in a whole bunch of lies that have caused terrible tragedies.

But, you know, your listeners don't have to put up with this, because we know what causes 89% of the illnesses in Western societies, and that's from eating like a king and queen.

A: And now, I think, it's been recognized by the World Health Organization, hasn't it? Most

of the chronic degenerative diseases, they say, are due to diet and lifestyle.

M: You know, the [American] Heart Association, [the] Cancer Society, [the] World Health Organization, and so on, they kind of dip into the issues of diet. Like the World Health Organization has told us that over-nutrition causes more problems than under-nutrition, [has] for the last 20 years.Likewise, the Heart Association tells us that we should eat a low-fat diet, and the Cancer Society came out in 2015 and made the professional statement [that] doctors [should] treat people with cancer with a plant food based diet. That's from the American Cancer Society. They don't quite know what to do, but they know that in the studies done, people who have cancer, like prostate, breast, colon cancers, melanomas--this was published in February of 2015, the American Cancer Society's official position on part of the basic fundamental treatment of a cancer patient is a good diet.

But, you know, that has never transferred into any changes in practice. You watch CNN news or 60 minutes or whatever--what you find is they're sponsored by the drug industries. And, you know, these medications, they have some effects, but the overall effects when it comes to chronic disease are, you know, with few exceptions, more harm is done than good.

Now let's talk about the good news: you can get well if you realize that you suffer from diseases of kings and queens.

You just look in the mirror. 80%of people in the United States and Canada are overweight, about 40%are obese.

A: In Newfoundland, we actually have the worst rates of chronic disease, and the same for being overweight and obese, including childhood obesity.

M: You do up in your town?

A: Yes. We've got some pretty bad rates of chronic degenerative diseases; and, so here's a

question that I would like to ask, this for my viewers, and it's just to get a sense of, you know, what are chronic degenerative diseases? And, you know, a lot of people think it's just an inevitable part of aging, that it's a result of living longer, and this should be expected. And, you know, they have a family history, so they say, "Well I'm just gonna have to take drugs, and adding a bit of weight on, you know, that's just part of getting older as well."

M: Well, yeah, the fact is we do get older and we do die. But chronic diseases--I can, I think, separate them into a couple of categories that'll make it easier for your listeners to understand.

There are acute illnesses, which the medical profession does a great job with. For example, if you get it on auto accident or you get burnt or... you know, we're really good at patching people up, but that's from a single injury-- like, a crushing of the bone or an attack of bacteria. But these are single injuries to the body. Those are acute illnesses, and doctors can intervene and tip the balance [in favor] of their patient. And we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is very important, but only represents maybe 10-20% of the problems that doctors see.

The other 80% of problems [are] due to not single injuries, but repeated injuries. And that's how you get chronic disease. For example, if you repeatedly inhale 20 cigarettes a day, or 40 cigarettes a day, then you can develop a chronic cough and chronic bronchitis--due to repeated injuries. If you just smoke one cigarette, you know, maybe once a month, [you won't develop] this problem. So, it's the same thing with the other chronic diseases we have but the the injuring agent here is the food. And when you eat like a king and a queen, I'll repeat for you, you end up looking like a king and a queen.

And most of the people, in fact, one of the statements I'd like your listeners to memorize, because it's an argument that you can use against all of the low-carbers, the high meat people, the--you know, all the crazy people out there in the world recommending one diet or another--and that is the observation, you know, if you're a historian, you're involved in theologies, if you have been able to observe geographic differences in people's appearance, in their health, worldwide, you'll come to the conclusion that all large successful populations of people throughout all verifiable human history have lived on a diet where the bulk of the calories have come from starch. Starch.

Now starch is plant parts--starches are plant parts.They can be above ground, or they

can be below ground, where carbohydrate is stored for the plant's use. If they're

underground starches they'd be called, um,they would be thought of as root vegetables

like potatoes and sweet potatoes, and bulbs, corms. Above ground storage organs, starch, which the plant makes for itself, so it can re-germinate, it can become anew when winter is over,

starch is stored above ground in grains and legumes--these are above-ground storage organs.

So if you look around the world throughout history what you find is that the bulk of people who've lived on planet earth have lived on starch-based diets. Let's start with Asia. You know, typically when you think of people from Korea, China, Vietnam, Japan, etc., you think of people who are rice eaters primarily. They, of course, you know, there are other starches that populations in Asia lived on, but it's always been starches. If you take a look at people in

Central America what you find is that for 1300 years the Aztecs and Mayans had civilizations which were based on corn. These were known as the people of the corn.They fought battles, they had athletic events, they bore children--they survived a tremendous hardship living on corn and a few vegetables and very very little animal food. You know, we could talk about South America and the Incas, living on potatoes and quinoa. Wherever you look in the world you find that almost everybody, before they became rich--you know, there were a few kings and queens and pharaohs and priests and priestesses along the way--but most of the people

couldn't afford to eat all the animal foods and all the other delicacies.

If you [...] stop and realize what you already know to be true, either from your history lessons or your own observations because you're a traveler, or your observations because you watched documentaries, or you're a religious person and you read the Bible or the Koran--you come to the conclusion that people have lived on starch-based diets: rice, corn, potatoes, sweet

potatoes, beans and so on.

Exceptions are a few populations that lived at the extremes in the environment. And you know, you're talking about sixty thousand people in the Inuit Eskimos, up near where you live. [...] populations I imagine live up in that area. And these people, they would burn 4000-7000 calories a day. They couldn't live on the diet I recommend. It would be--they wouldn't have to enough time in the day. But the environment, that cold environment up there has allowed the Inuit Eskimo to survive on a diet which is basically the Atkins diet. For seven months of the year, their diet is based on animal products. For three months of the year or three to five

months the year, they have a little vegetable food, but otherwise it was [...] But they didn't do well. They had, the Inuit Eskimo, had terrible atherosclerosis, and, more atherosclerosis than the average American. Lifespan is, you know,we're talking about the traditional Inuit Eskimo [...] But I use the word Eskimo, I know it offends some people but history and scientific literature refers to these populations of people as Eskimos, that was before [...]" civilized," so to speak, Americanized.

Now, the typical person living in these regions, the native people in these regions, they go fishing with the "green lure." Go fishing with a green lure means you drive through the fast food line, you roll down the window, and you hand a green lure out and the person behind the counter hands you a fish burger. That's your, you know, that's [...] And they're some of the sickest people in the world. I know a lot of [...Alaskans], I realize that's on the other side of the continent from you, and I may not be speaking it as accurately as--you can confirm or, you know, put me in the proper perspective.

A: Well it's quite similar here. People who grew up in Newfoundland and had their families grow up in Newfoundland; they had families that have a history of being able to survive the cold climate. You know, we can have winter from November to May or the start of June. Pretty cold, and a short growing season. And what people grew up on, not that long ago, was salted fish, usually cod, salted meat, salt pork, wild game, [like] moose, caribou, turr, seal, wildberries, and root vegetables they would grow themselves, a lot of cabbage and potatoes and carrots and beets and that sort of thing; and then in addition they would have flour usually white flour and

sugar and margin. And that's pretty much what people grew up on, what they were used to.

And then if you go further up north into Labrador, the diets are more like what you're talking about, sort of typical Eskimo diet.

So today there's a push to return to the traditional ways of eating, because of our healthcare crisis. People are, you know, saying, they're struggling with their weight, and they're on

are a lot of medications, they don't know what to do about it. They want to return to

real food, to a lifestyle that was more active.

So, you talk a bit about how the Eskimos didn't do so well, and I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about the "Eskimo Paradox," and similar populations around the world where people tend to easily become overweight and obese when the Westernize their diet.

M: Well, if the people from Newfoundland, who their grandfathers, grandmothers and certainly their great grandfathers and grandmothers, if they were going to eat from the land they

would also have to live the same kind of lifestyle. In other words, they'd have to live in igloos, they'd have to go out on hunting expeditions; that was a very tough life. Extremely cold climate.

Whereas today, the people in that region of the world have been, again, Westernized,and they rattling around in heated SUVs, and heated homes, and, you know, I'll go back to the population of people I do know which is the people who live in Alaska. They have some of the worst tooth decay, obesity--you know, we're talking about half the population having Type 2 Diabetes.[They're] just terribly sick.

And this goes for, not just the native populations in Newfoundland and Alaska, but in the Native American populations who used to live on corn, like, for example, the Pima Indians in Arizona. 60% of them have gallbladder disease, about 60% have diabetes, obesity is rampant, it's not just being overweight. And these Pima Indians are from a lineage where, you know, people originally grew up on corn based diet. And about three hundred years ago they split off: one group went to Arizona, another group went to Northwest Mexico, to Copper Canyon. And so we have the same genes--they're an interesting population of people to study--we have the same genes, but we have a different environment. The population that went to the reservations--they were put on US reservations, so they could steal their land--the populations that went on the reservations that were taken care of by the good old American government, had become very, very sick. Whereas the Tarahumara Indians, they're called, the Tarahumara people, who live in Copper Canyon--they have a very tough life now because of the drug cartel--but up until recently they were some of the healthiest people on the planet. They're known as the Running Indians. They run for 12 hours a day.They have cholesterol levels typically below 130 milligrams per deciliter--to translate that into Canadian units you divide by 38, to get international units.

They had  no heart disease, no diabetes, and still they have maintained their native diet, for the

most part, in people who live in the Copper Canyon, who are known as the Tarahumara Indians. They maintain a diet of corn and squash and beans and they're immune basically immune from the Western diseases. Like I say, it's tough life down there now because Copper Canyon is a great place for drug dealers to hide and they brought crime, a terrible lot of crime to these people.

But here you have a perfect example of the same genes which come from these populations, one going to Arizona, and they being the Pima Indians, and getting among the fattest and sickest people in the world; and another segment of the same genes going to Northwest Mexico, the Copper Canyon, and maintaining their native diet of corn, squash and beans, who have virtually none of the diseases of the Western civilization.

But there are many, many examples. You can find the same thing over and over again. But my point being is you're going to run into all kinds of people who have the “truth.” They will tell you that you need to eat an all-meat diet or a gluten-free diet--which is a whole other subject we can get into--or a diet--this happens to be the most popular diet, is by a guy named, I think it's Grundy, is his name, it's a diet without lectins,which are plant food parts. You know, all

kinds of crazy things people'll talk about.

But if you just step back and realize that of--I used to say 10 billion people who walked planet Earth--I was corrected by a professor at the university, who told me 100 billion people have walked this Earth--I mean, 99.99% of the people who walked have consumed a starch-based diet.

Now it's really important that listeners hear the word Starch, otherwise they're gonna fail.

If they try to live on broccoli and cauliflower, lettuce and kale and so on, they're gonna starve to death. And a lot of people are trying to do that. The idea is they want to get a nutrient-dense diet. Well, good grief, there are enough nutrients in white rice to almost win WWII.The Japanese almost won WWII living on a diet of over 90% white rice; and, in Vietnam, they won against the Americans.[...] the Vietnamese conflict, on a diet that was over 90% white rice. So, it's never a nutritional deficiency problem.There has been, in the past, problems of refined grains leading to beriberi and scurvy and so on, but not in this day and age.

So you can prove it to yourself. You can look at the Bible. You can see that Genesis talks about the original diet of man being a plant-based diet. You can read the first chapter of Daniel; and Daniel publishes the first controlled trials of diet when his men came to the new kingdom where they were serving lots of rich food and Daniel asks the gatekeeper, “Can I keep my men on pulses and water?”, which are Starches and water. And in the first chapter of Daniel you'll see declared that his men, Daniel's men, who stayed on the pulses and water, at the end of 10 days were much healthier, much stronger, better-looking than those who ate the royal food diet, the King’s diet.

So again, the observations that you can make based upon religion, history, geography, common sense, anatomy, [the] physiology of a human being--clearly says that we are a starch-eating population.

A: I have to say, from my own personal experience, I grew up in Chicago, and I had kind of a similar [experience to yours. When I was] was eight years old [I had my tonsils removed],

they were always swollen, so my ears would get infected, I was lethargic, and felt [I had too much] weight. I was just a little kid, and I was wondering, you know, why--what's the difference? I noticed other kids around me, [and] see how they would snack on an apple instead of ice cream or chips, how they would look different, healthier. And a good friend of mine became vegetarian after reading Upton Sinclair's book, The Jungle. And that was before I was 10 or 12. Just looking at that, I thought to myself, "I am supposed to eat fruits and vegetables." And I just didn't know how to go about it, so, you know, I ended up going to read--my mom would take us to  the bookstore, where we could spend our allowance, and I would go to the bargain book section, and started looking at books that talk about fruits and vegetables, all of the benefits. I kind of struggled along trying to figure it out. What I did find, when I actually listened to some of your talks as well, it matched my experience, that if I didn't have starches, I was thinking about food all the time, I felt very, I guess food insecure.  I wanted to eat well, but if I didn't have those starches, I was always hungry, and I didn't have the right kind of energy. And because I wanted to be free of medication, travel [...]and I didn't have a lot of money, I wanted to keep it sustainable, and to be able to do this anywhere.

So, just from watching people, and then from eating the foods and feeling it [...]

I have to say, since I eat [the diet that you suggest],  the starch based diet, no vegetable oils, I actually don't get hungry, I just know when my energy's low. And I don't have any food

cravings, and I think it's just incredible [...]

M: Well, you know, anybody can--you need to have your eyes opened first.

And of course, you have your own history of how your eyes were opened, and I can tell you an hour-long story, you could read about it in some of the books of that I've written, about how my eyes were opened; or you can go to my December--my 2013 newsletters. You can learn about my mentors, people like Denis Burkitt and Nathan Pritikin and Walter Kempner and Roy Swank. These are men, they happen to all be men, who pioneered the kind of treatment that I use in taking care of my patients--have for the last 40 years.

I've been doing this 40 years. And you know, anybody who is frustrated because they can't find a diet that's satisfying, they can't find a diet that gives them the health they want, that will fill them up and keep their weight trim, you know, [it'll] take you, well, probably seven days to figure out what the truth is.

I've run for, oh, let's see, it's been almost 32 years, I've run the residential programs, I've taken care of personally, I mean I've been a physician--I don't do that anymore--but as a physician, I've taken care of over 6000 people. And you know, we run a 10-day live-in program, a residential program, where we give a phenomenal education to folks. They stay with us in Santa Rosa, California; we take them off their medications, in most cases. In fact, you can read our published research, and it's never been criticized, it's open to access, you just have to look up my name: McDougall, John and Diet, and you'll find the various papers I've written.

But one in particular was written about our patients of ten years of patient data,

which was one thousand six hundred and fifteen people, nobody excluded, that went

through the ten day program, and the data we collected was over seven days.

The average weight loss, eating as much as they could or wanted to eat, was 3.1 pounds; the average drop in cholesterol was 22 points, again international units you divide by 38 to make a conversion; the drop in blood sugars were, you know, tremendous. We've been able to get essentially everybody who has type 2 diabetes off their medications, and their blood sugar [went] down as good or better--in seven days. And eventually, just by definition, all type-2 diabetics are curable by weightloss and a good diet. So, you know, it wasn't surprising.

Anyway, we could read the scientific paper, you can find it on my website or you could go to PubMed. My website is www.drmcdougall.com, D-R-M-C-D-O-U-G-A-L-L dot com,  and there you'll find a plethora of information, that by the way is all free. There are people who will write me every once in a while and say, "You know, I've spent two weeks on your website and I'm looking for the gimmick. Where's the gimmick? Well, there are no gimmicks. Mary, my wife, best friend for 46 years, we decided a long time ago that we were going to give this away for free. Well, initially because nobody would buy it, but primarily because we felt our lives were saved by learning... You know, I told you my history: before I was 28 years old--I was dying. Mary, my wife, partner, she was a little more moderate in her behavior and she'd probably still have done okay.

Anyway, we take people, we take about 60 people every month or two into this live-in situation, where we give them a great education; we're also taking care of various employees of companies-excuse me, employees of various companies. For example, we take care of the employees of Whole Foods Markets; and there's a company up here in the northwest of the

U.S. called CenturyLink, I don't know whether you have that telecommunication company there or not, but they send their employees to our program. And the reason they do it is because they see tremendous financial savings for their companies. So anyways, we take care people in a live-in setting.

[If there is] information that you need, it's on the website, including a QuickStart program, you probably find six hundred recipes, discussions of all kinds of topics, from multiple sclerosis to rheumatoid arthritis to type two diabetes--all referenced extremely well because I had this passion for the scientific literature. No one has ever come back to me and said, "John, you know, you were overly biased, you distorted the what science says.” And I've been at this for more than forty years, I've been a physician for more than 50 years, and you know, to my face there's never been any criticism. And I published in some of the major medical journals and I spoke in [some of the major] professional conferences--and a lot of people don't like what I have to say, but they never denied it to be true.

And again, the observation that you all should make, rather than, you know, arguing the science, which, by the way, is paid for by industry these days, is just rely upon that observation

I've told you. And that is: throughout all of human history, all large--remember the Inuit population was not large--successful--the Inuit population, you know, don't take this as a criticism, but it was not very advanced, [It has been] a rough primitive life--all large, successful populations of people--those living in Asia, in South America, North America--lived on a diet where the bulk of the calories had come from starch.

You know, it was too hard to get animals, fortunately. But let me just take a side note for you

here. Do you want to know why the hunter-gatherer theory has been focused on the hunter? In other words [...] the argument that we're all hunter-gatherers, with the emphasis on the hunter? Well, it's a gender bias thing. It's a male dominance thing. We talked about what the men did: they went out and maybe were gone for two weeks and maybe they got an animal and maybe they brought it back before it was rotten.

But who is collecting the food for the village? It was the grandparents, the children, women. So the hunter-gatherer theory--as far as almost all 99.99% of the populations, the exceptions being people living on the extremes in the environment--the hunter-gatherer theory must look at who obtained most of the calories, and it was the women, the grandparents, the kids; the men got the glory, just as they do today. Gender bias.

A: [There are] two more things [I would like] to talk about; I think [we could talk] a bit more in detail about the diet that you recommend. And when people go on your diet, you say that they should expect the results [...] of lower blood sugar, lowered cholesterol, losing weight.

So why is that, and how long--you said about seven days to get results--and what

success have you had with compliance?

M: Okay. Well this is all published. Our study on compliance was done [at] Oregon Health and Science University Medical School in Portland, Oregon. And they studied a group of our patients looking at the effects of our diet on multiple sclerosis. We found some very positive effects. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough money to really show the kind of effects we wanted to show. But, for example, we got significant, tremendous relief of fatigue, the average weight loss--this was a study done, a randomized control trial done completely independent of me except that I educated the people, they came to my10-Day live-in program; after that, well,

before that I did not gather the participants--they did; they randomized the participants, they collected the data, they analyzed the data, they published the paper--I had nothing to do with it. But the results were, first of all, they were surprised by compliance.

I can remember the day that I walked into my principal investigator’s office at the neurology department in Oregon Health and Science University, and she had the biggest smile on her face. She says, "John, I cannot believe this, the compliance rate is huge!" They had found that 85% of people remained compliant, and they published this in scientific paper--never been criticized--85% of people remained compliant for a year. Why? Because the food tastes good. Why? Because the results were so dramatic. Why? Because they cut their food bill. Why? Because it's blended with their concern for animal rights. Why? Because it fitted with their  concern for planetary destruction, global warming. You know, it just felt right to 'em. So 85% of people remained complaint for a year, independent of any further education on our part.

We got an average of 20 pound weight loss, that was sustained for a year; an average of 20 point drop in cholesterol, which was sustained for a year; and all kinds of phenomenal benefits that we see everyday.

So the compliance rates are quite high.This study, again, is published in the scientific literature, you can look it up: it's in MS and Related Diseases, which is the journal, but just look up my name and multiple sclerosis and you'll find a scientific stay, which, by the way, even though it was published, what I think was published in 2015, I might have the date wrong on that, but [it's] never been criticized. [It] has changed the subject matter of neurologic problems worldwide. They're all talking about diet now, and Oregon Health and Science University, they've told me, the professors there in the neurology departments, they want to be known as the Diet-MS center of the world.

Because a good diet will stop multiple sclerosis. Multiple sclerosis is caused by the Western diet. It's an autoimmune disease.

So compliance is high, benefits are dramatic--it's just like if you quit smoking.Anybody who knows a chronic cigarette smoker knows that they get better in...seven days! You know, almost immediately, just by stopping the poison. Or an alcoholic, you know, they stop falling down, like, within three or four days after they're stopping the drinking.

The problem that people are suffering from in Western societies, which is now, you know, the bulk of the people in the world, the problem people are suffering from is food poisoning, due to animal products and vegetable oils.

And, you know, I initially say that to a lot of folks and they say, "Well, that's all I eat."

Well that's because you haven't to this point understood that the human being is a starch eater, a starchivore, a starchitarian. And once you get this set in your mind, it really [is] a big step, because the education by the meat and dairy industry and the food industry--it's so brainwashing. It's very difficult for people to get their mind wrapped around the idea that they're eating the wrong food.

Which is like, I was talking to my daughter--we have company visiting-- so I was talking to her about her animals last night, and she's talking about how sick her cats were, and then once they changed the cats to a wet food meat diet, all the cats' condition cleared up. Now, there's a diet for cats, they won't live on baked potatoes. They're carnivores, and that's what they're supposed to eat. Well there's diet for human beings, too, and that's a starch-based diet, with a few fruits and vegetables. Animal foods in the form of animal secretions, which

are known as dairy products, or animal flesh or organs or [whatever] animal parts that you can eat, are not only not necessary, but the body can only tolerate a small amount of them. The body does tolerate them, just like the body will tolerate a little alcohol, a little smoking,

but [it won't tolerate it at the level of consumption that has been traditional for] aristocrats in the past.

People in Canada, people in Europe, people in now China--and of course, the U.S. led the way--they all look like kings and queens. And they, you know, they're helpless, because you're not gonna solve the problem by being hungry; you're not gonna solve problem by making yourself sick, which is what you do by going on a diet like the Atkins diet. You become sick, you lose your appetite, [...] You're not gonna get well by following a lot of the other gimmicky diets.

A: [...] If you go into the bookstores now... I'd say about couple months ago, it was all plant-based, vegetarian, and now they've got the keto books right next to the vegan books. And it's just  another fad that people are jumping on, [and they get excited] because they lose weight so quickly.

M: Well, they do, because they get sick.

You know, first they lose a lot of water and protein, and they lose their glycogen stores not eating carbohydrates. As a result, they lose six to ten pounds in a week, of water weight and loss of glycogen, which is your sugar stored in your muscles. And so they get excited, and then, if they can maintain it, which they can't, even Robert Atkins was fat [...]

I did a video, you've probably seen it, on people in our camp, [that] teach a high-starch diet, and people in their camp, like Sally Fallon, Lorn Cordain,and Barry Sears and Robert Atkins--

they're all fat and sick people. Let's just look at the gurus, and you'll see that you don't want to do what they're doing. You know, the ones that recommend the low-carb diets are fat and sick. Now, I never predicted it, but I've outlived Atkins. I'm older than he was when he died. And, uh, anyway. I know that if I had maintained eating the [Western] diet [...]

A: And so, for your diet, could you tell us, what the is, in detail, that you recommend, and why we shouldn't be concerned about protein, calcium, omega-3s and vitamin D?

M: Well, the diet I recommend is a starch-based diet.

When you look at your plate you should see 90% of the food is rice or potatoes or sweet potatoes. You cannot live on above-ground storage organs alone,which would be grains and legumes, because they're missing [vitamins] A and C, so you must have a little bit of A and C, which come from fruits and vegetables. You can live on a diet of underground storage organs alone. You can live on a diet of potatoes and water. That shows you how complete the food is and how simple our needs are.

So the diet I recommend is starch-based, [which is] what traditionally people [have eaten], almost everybody that has walked the earth. When you look at your plate you should see that about 90% of the food is starch, with maybe 10% being fruits and vegetables; and if you still choose to consume treats, delicacies, status food, I don't know what you want to call it--you're gonna get away with eating some turkey on Thanksgiving, eating a candy bar on Halloween, a piece of cake on your birthday. Unfortunately, most of us, we start every day with a holiday called Easter; we go on to another couple holidays, every day, like, Thanksgiving and Christmas and we finish every meal with birthday party. And as a result we end up fat and sick.

So, we have almost 4,000 published recipes, you can get from 500-600 of them on my website, www.drmcougall.com, for free. We also have the McDougall Mobile Cooking App, which has over a thousand recipes, I think it's $5; people love that app. You need to find one or two or three things you like.

Every morning Mary and I have oatmeal because it's easy. She makes it, or we have a food company called Dr. McDougall's Right Foods, which is in over six thousand stores. Now, I don't know whether it's in your part of the world or not, there's a problem with having food products in Canada because they must have French labels on them, you know, so, I don't know how our sales have gone up there. But we're in 6,000 stores in the U.S. Almost every store, almost every store that sells groceries has Dr. McDougall's Right Foods. So we'll start in the morning with breakfast, with oatmeal, either, that Mary has made, or Dr. McDougall's Right Foods oatmeals. And then there are just a few dishes that we really enjoy, that we makeover and over again, such as Thai noodles--that's one of my favorites; and, you know, it tastes better than any Thai Noodles you've ever had. Another favorite of mine, I could probably live on it for three meals a day, seven days a week, is mashed potatoes. I have mashed potatoes with peas or corn, some gravy that Mary makes--actually that's been one of my favorite dishes for my whole life, for the past 70 years plus, is mashed potatoes and gravy, [some] peas and corn. The gravy used to be made from beef stock, and now Mary makes it from a vegetable stock.

So, you don't have to make a diet of great variety; you can just pick a few things you like, make them over and over again. People are very monotonous in their eating. I mean, think about it, if you go to a restaurant, you're eating the same thing from that menu at their restaurant everytime you go. It's the same thing for breakfast every day, you have two or three different things for lunch or dinner, even if they're on the American diet.

So, we have over four thousand recipes published. You need to find four or five

foods you like. And we use a little bit of  salt, a little sugar to make them taste better, for

most people, there are [exceptions] who can't use salt and sugar; and, you know, people love of food, and they love the results and they're amazed by the results.

And I can tell you how good it makes me feel, and the seven doctors who work with me, when we take in people, as many as 150 people at a time, at our clinics--it's very, extremely rewarding for our staff. When you come to the McDougall Programs in Santa Rosa, California, just see how enthusiastic the staff is because we have a chance to change people's lives, to make other people's lives better. There's no greater reward than that.

Right before our eyes, you know, you see people lose... I gave you the data on average...oh I didn't do the data on medications. So, [the] published data shows that we get nearly 90% of people to reduce or stop all their blood pressure and diabetic medications. That's not bad!

You don't want to be a sick person, you don't want to be you living your life filled with doctors appointments, trying to remember what pill you have to take at what time of the day; you want your health back.

The way to get your health back is to stop the cause of the illnesses, and the cause of the illnesses in the rich societies is very simple: we eat animal foods, oils, you know, and various other refined foods and junk. And the way to solve the problem is you stop throwing

gasoline on the fire. And people get well, and then they get well permanently.

You can go to my website, www.drmcdougall.com; you'll see about 200 Star McDougaller stories. These are typical results of people being cured of rheumatoid arthritis, lupus,psoriatic arthritis, stopping very severe heart disease that was destined for a bypass surgery or angioplasty; so people who, even people who have had cancer, even though we don't advertise as a place that treats cancer. The American Cancer Society, as I told you, in February 2015 told all the doctors in the United States that they oughta have as part of the fundamental treatment for their patients a plant food based diet. We see benefits with cancer patients, also.

A: Yeah [you have pretty great testimonials, and with] cancer, as well, I think Dr. T. Colin Campbell is doing a study, or some studies [...]

M: Dr. Campbell, of course, is one man on our team, a healthy 85 year old gentleman. He's been a good friend of mine for almost 30 years, and he's published on diet and cancer and he's done some basic research.

So, you know...but I have to tell you--my colleagues are slow learners. And [...] and this is all based on income. If we change the reward for the treatment to one where we reward good health as opposed to just treatment, then everything would change. But, even then, at Oregon Health and Science University, where they saw miraculous changes in people's health--they're still pushing useless drugs, drugs that have been proven to not benefit the patients in terms of primary outcomes, like living longer. They benefit secondary things, like, well they're secondary things. [Note: secondary things are like lowering blood pressure, lowering cholesterol, lowering blood sugar; these are symptoms, not causes of chronic diseases, and lowering numbers does not translate to improved health or decreased risk of disability or death.]

So, the medical journals are quite clear that these drugs, that cost--you know, I

used to say they cost $75,000 a year; but at a meeting I had with the faculties at OHSU last month, they told me, they corrected me, and they say, "No, John, now the drugs

are $100 thousand dollars a year."Just for the drugs!

Anyway, OHSU had the experience of seeing people cured; dramatic, dramatic benefits

to their health. The head of the neurology department told me, "John, I've never had a patient come up and thank me for putting them on an Interferon-beta," you know, $100,000-a-year drug, he said, "But, you know, in the last couple of years taking care of your patients, typically I have people come in in tears because of the benefits that they've received from a healthy diet: the

weight loss, a chance to play with their children and grandchildren. The reward has been tremendous.”

In fact, OHSU, the neurology department, is trying to start a dietary program, independent of mine. I don't know whether they'll ever do it, because they personally haven't made the commitment. They personally are too busy to take care of, let alone, their own selves, to much less teach the people with MS about a good diet.

But our results are there and they're published, they're un-criticized, which is not a problem.

A: Well [it’s so easy now to get}, the knowledge and the research,thanks to yourself and other websites like www.nutritionstudies.org  and www.nutritionfacts.org , people can empower

themselves to take [their] health into their own hands, and start on an [individual] basis.

M: Well people can. [But] first they have to realize that what's being done for them isn't working.

You know, you're getting a bunch of excuses and a handful of pills from your doctor. And you went with good intentions, your doctor probably approached you with good intentions, but unfortunately he or she does not have the tools to make a difference.

You know, they may change some secondary issues, such as your cholesterol level, but they don't prevent heart attacks. Well, excuse me, statin drugs do prevent heart attacks, but only in really sick people. The benefits are minor whereas the dietary change, maybe [it] sound[s] like a big deal to you, but, you know, big changes result in big improvements. If you're

gonna make, you know, if your diet changes to skin[less] chicken and to [drink] skim

milk instead of whole milk, you're not gonna get any real benefit.

You must make a major change in your fuel source; and that should be appealing to many of you. You should think about things that you like that are starches, like french toast or pancakes or oatmeal, or, you know, grain burgers or spaghetti in marinara sauce or mashed potatoes. I mean things that you already love; and put a little salt, sugar and spice on to enhance the flavor. And, again, there are certain exceptions, people who can't use these are enhancing ingredients, but most people can.

And, you'll have to be prepared to get off your medications. As I say, we stopped or reduced nearly 90% of drugs within seven days, that people have taken for 5, 10, 20 years, and their numbers are better. If they don't stop the blood pressure pills and the diabetic pills, the sugars and blood pressures get so low [they run the] risk of falling.

And so anyway, you need to have your eyes opened, to realize that the medical

business, even though it's trying, it's an extremely profitable business and the

bottom line is what they're concerned about--that has to do with selling drugs

and heart surgeries and building hospitals, etc.

A: I think one of the biggest changes, or reasons for people to look at what they're eating now--and it's getting a lot of attention--is climate change. So here, food security is a major issue because we're an island, and most of the food that people eat these days is imported. So we get a lot of food delivered by boat or by plane; and, if there's poor weather, then ice can block ships from coming in.

So, it used to be we had the cod fishery, it was a big business here that people lived on; but, as you know, the fish stocks are so low[...] they were talking about this summer, they might have to stop salmon fishing because they [the salmon stocks] were threatened. So now there is a mussel farm and they've just started a salmon farm, and there's a push for starting more animal agriculture and aquaculture here on the island.

So[me] people are moving, as well, toward homesteading; just, your average person wants to grow their own vegetables and keep some livestock, like chickens and goats for goat milk and cheese, and turkey. So what I want to ask about now is, what's the issue with animal

agriculture, even if you have it’s free-range and grass-fed and its local? And, for us, who’re trying to be food secure, is there a different [way we can go]?

M: Well, you know, this is what keeps me going. This is why I get up every morning with optimism.

I have seven grandchildren. As a matter of fact, they're, you know, all visiting today, at our--Mary and I, this is one of our yearly gatherings of our seven--three children, their spouses,

and there are seven grandchildren. They have no future. You know, they have no


Up where you are, the global warming in the northern latitudes and southern latitudes, as you get further away from the equator, the effects of global warming are even greater. So you must be seeing tremendous changes. We are seeing them where we live, too. As a matter of fact, the reason I live in Portland, Oregon now is because in October--October 9th, 2017--everything I own was taken by the wildfires in California. So we're having massive wildfires on the west coast, massive hurricanes on the east coast, the polar caps are melting, and the cause--there are many causes, and they're focused on things that need to be changed, like transportation, you know, how to generate energy that is environmentally friendly.

But one of the things that's never talked about there[...]really isn't, it's just so rare for folks to talk about this-- is the impact of the livestock industry. The World Health Organization did a report that they published in 2006, [and they] came to the conclusion that the livestock industry accounts for 18% of the global warming gases, which is more than all of transportation, it's more than any other segment of the economy as far as causing global warming gases. The World Watch Institute reanalyzed their data, and they just they came to the conclusion that over half the global warming gases were caused by the livestock industry.

Now, you know, I have [...] calm. Now, I don't know, where I live, it's not conducive to solar panels; I would have solar panels. And those are good things, but it'll take 10 to 20 years to show an impact; whereas food is something that, you know,  7 billion people on this planet could change overnight if they've got enough education from honest physicians and dietitians and politicians and so on, about the impact of the livestock industry on our environment and how you rchildren and your grandchildren, they're not going to have a place to live. I hate to say that, but every time I pick up a newspaper, every report I hear talks about a worse outcome than they predicted just a couple of months ago, things are going so fast.

So we need an intervention like a change to a starch-based diet, to save the planet, you know. I don't think it's ever going to happen, if you want truth. But consider the fact that production of beef is a hundred times more environmentally destructive than the production of the same number of calories of potatoes. So if we want to save the world, you've got to do it with dietary change, as the immediate stepforward. We need to do all [of these other] things, in terms of power production and travel and so on, but you know even with all that effort we're not gonna [fix it] without fixing the diet, because it's so environmentally unfriendly, livestock [is]. Even the fish farming, that you talked about, is environmentally terribly unfriendly.

And people are eating foods [that are] destroying the planet, that is poisonous to themselves, to their spouses, to their fathers and mothers, to their children--and it's causing a worldwide epidemic that is highly profitable to the drug industries, the food industries, the hospitals, the doctors, etc.

It's all money, folks, it's not a conspiracy. It's just people doing business. And, if the consequence, you know--we really have very little chance of saving planet Earth.But I ain't giving up! [...]

I hope your viewers take at least part of our message, you know, and have their eyes opened, to start looking into how to save themselves,their families, contribute to their communities, the world at large.

You can combine all the bad habits that people have: heroin addiction, cigarette smoking,alcoholism, etc--you can combine all of those and look at the cost to individuals, to families, to local communities, to countries, to the planet; and all the cost of all of these bad habits, so to speak, is minuscule compared to the cost of food poisoning that's

occurring. I mean, after all, growing tobacco and growing [grains for] alcohol--it's environmentally friendly; growing heroin--it's not like I'm recommending these things [...] Everybody's up in arms about recognized bad habits--of course, the focus their attention [should be] on the livestock industry. [It's] the only way that I see that we have a chance [of] saving ourselves.

Well, I hope it was a good amount of time [spent] with your viewers, and I hope they will take your message and the contribution that Mary and I have made, along with our fellow colleagues, and… Don't hold back.

You know, the consequences are too great to be politically correct. So whatever talents you have, you know, whether you're a physicist or a florist or gardener, whatever your talents are, a lawyer, a doctor, good communicator--go out there and try and open up other people's eyes. It's too important, it's too impossible for just a few of us individuals to make a change. We need everybody's help.

A: I'm just going to tell you some of the things that people can grow here and then you can tell me if we can be sustainable and thrive on [these foods] nutritionally. So here in Newfoundland, in our climate, and it's even greater now that [...] been technologies for greenhouses [...] we grow potatoes.

M: Potatoes can grow almost anywhere!

A: Rutabagas, which we call turnips here, cabbage, kale, and then of course, there's other varieties, we've got tons of wild berries, blueberries, raspberries [are] everywhere. So, just on those things alone, would we be able to, you know, be sustainable and to thrive nutritionally?

M: Well, yeah.

We have a world that has the possibility,  with the communication we have, you know, the possibility of making changes that will make all the difference. Just, you know, [if] we can just get the message about the truth about food out to people, we would give us some more time.We need more time.

There are a lot of good people out there trying to solve the problems related to fossil fuels, but

we're really, you know, you and I and a few other folks out there, are really the only ones that are directly addressing the most easily and quickly changeable, most destructive part of our living, which is the food. So many problems will be solved. You could close 80% of the hospitals. You could you put the pharmaceutical business--well, you know, there's some drugs that are of some help, but you could tone them down considerably. Anyway, it's the food, folks, it's the food.

Go to www.drmcdougall.com, and you will see the subtitle: It's the food!

A: I'm going to provide a link to your website[...]

M: I spent 40 years working hard, doing professional lectures, writing books--we have 13 national best-selling books, six of them are still in active publication, some of them after 25 years, they're such popular books--we send out bi-weekly mailings of lectures that I've given at events that we're having. For example, we start a program the end of January, [a] 10-day program, that will have about 50-60 people that we'll take care of,; and I believe in March or May of this year 2019 we have a weekend which will be attended by, you know, somewhere between 150 and 300 people. So we have a lot of educational opportunities, all the way from totally free, completely covering the subject on our website. We can't take you totally free on our adventure

vacations or keep you at our clinic; but if you want the information, there's nothing held back, it's all there.

A: I have to say, your website was a huge resource for me, and where I don't really have a lot of money, I just devoured everything on your website: the free e lectures, the interviews with

experts, the webinars [...] the hot topics, the newsletters. It's an incredible wealth of information.

M: I'm glad you appreciate it. I have doctors who tell me all over the country that, you know, when they look at a topic first thing they do is to go to my website, look what I have to say about it, and then pretty much, from there they can dissect out the truth. The truth is the truth, it doesn't change, it hasn't changed, you know, since the Egyptian pharaohs or Daniel in the Bible or anything you've ever [...] The truth is the same.

You know, we can tolerate a little bit poison, the human being can. That includes tobacco, a little opioid, a little alcohol; but it gets out of hand. You know, you can tolerate a piece of birthday cake on your birthday, but you can't have a birthday party twice a day. [...] There's [just] no profit [in it].

A: I'm [just going to share] some of your books, and then close up. So for people who are

interested in some of Dr. McDougall's books, this one I highly recommend, The

Starch Solution.

M: That's a world-wide national best-seller. [I'd say] that's the best [book we’ve written]. [It’s] interesting, my son, who's a professor at OHSU, the medical school here in Portland, he told me, as he went through his medical education, and he started reading his dad's books, he said, "Dad, you said it all in The McDougall Plan," which I published in the early eighties, "Why did you have to write another book?" Well, you know, we got better at communicating over the years, and so as a result you can start with McDougall Plan, which was written in the early

eighties and became a New York Times bestseller, and you'll get the same message that you get 40 years from then, you know. And people sometimes say to me, "Why do you teach the same thing over and over again?" I've been teaching the same thing for 40 years.

Well my mentors used to teach the same thing, and Daniel used to teach the same thing.The truth's the truth, you know, I'm not gonna change.

A: [And] this is your latest book, The Healthiest Diet on the Planet.

M: That is from Harper One.

A: What's great about this one is your Color Picture Book, which you can get for free on your website.

M: You can get it in 24 languages.

A: Yeah, it's a great guide for anybody who feels like, "I don't want to think about what I eat, you know, I just want to keep it simple,” and they can flick through that and look at it on your website and get all the information.

M: You go to my website [...] The Healthiest Diet on the Planet was, as you know, a color picture book [on] food poisoning, and it's been a big success. And I strongly recommend it. People are usually [...] like you did, you get both books, my Maximum Weight Loss book and there a lot of other...like I said, we've written 13 national best-selling books--but any of them will give you the message. Or you can get it perfectly free just by going to the website, it's no gimmicks, it's all there.

A: And there are two more and that's it. Just because I find there are people who have a great interest in them, and one is this, Dr. McDougall’s Digestive Tune-Up.

M: Yeah, that's a fun book, [you can read cover to cover, bowel to bowel] and enjoy it.

A: You know, when it comes down to the food, your first contact with it is your digestive system.  They're finding now that the microbiome, and the food synergy, and how your immune system is a lot in the gut and neurotransmitters...it's [all] pretty fascinating. My other one that I recommended to people, especially when they're concerned about their doctor’s advice, or [their] registered dietician or nutritionist, is this one [Dr. McDougall’s Medicine: A Challenging Second Opinion].

M: That is a book...I wrote that probably 35 years ago,about the treatment of osteoporosis and

cancer and heart disease, and it's a thorough review of the scientific literature and nothing has changed.

A: I saw when it was published, and it's all relevant now.

M: Oh yeah, and, you know, the same truths that I published back then are true today, even though back then the drug companies weren't, didn't own the journals and the doctors as much as they do today. But McDougall's Medicine: A Challenging Second Opinion, it's a classic. So anybody interested in the failure of current medical practices to solve the chronic disease problems, the basic scientific literature is all there, you'll find nothing to contradict it, and then you'll see the dietary approach. It's been used by people like Roy Swank and Walter Kempner, who was the sustaining life of Duke University for, well, seventy years--his program was there

toward two decades. Kempner's work was based on a rice diet-- [he] supported Duke

University. So you will find all this information on pioneers, whose shoulders I stand on, who use diet to treat chronic illnesses, like coronary artery disease and chest pain and high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes. This research is so solid and it's been going on for so long--thousands of years--it's just not profitable.[...] It's just money.

A: Well hopefully people will realize that the most sustainable thing they could do is to look after their health, and when they do that, they look after everything else.

M: There's every reason to do the right thing.

So, I appreciate the fact that you're out there trying trying to get friends and family and relatives changing. You know, this is a war. We have to win. So--and I'm not gonna do it alone, nor is Dr.Campbell or Dean Ornish.

By the way, we do webinars every Thursday which are done live; the next the next webinar I'm doing is with Dean Ornish and his wife. So you can watch live presentations which are also posted, there probably 250 webinars on my website I've done, which are free, many lectures from prominent medical doctors and dietitians--who agree with me on many issues but not all issues.

Yeah, so, you know, I continue to have this belief that I'm right, in most things. I hope

I'm open-minded enough to critically evaluate, you know, the message I try and give people. You look, you see, you judge for yourself. It's all free.Thank you very much.

A: Yeah, and thank you for your time; and people in Newfoundland love to say that everybody is welcome to visit, so you and your family, come to Newfoundland anytime you like.

M: Well you know, there's actually a physician up in your area who practices our uses, our methods. I'm sorry I don't recall his name right at the moment, but you know, there are there doctors around the world who are trying to take care of patients by doing the right thing, which is

stopping the cause of their illness which is the food. It's the food, folks. You need

some sunshine, you need to walk around, but it's the food. So thank you very much for

a chance to talk to your following [...] I hope we get a chance to do it again. [Note: Dr. Rayapudi in Burin; check out their workshops at www.giftofhealth.org ]

A: Thank you!

M: Bye-bye.